Sef.Talk Remote Work – Tools and rituals
In the last Sef.Talk episode we discussed tools, rituals and working atmosphere in the home office. Among the participants were Carlo Badini (CEO Cleverclip), Tobias Häckermann (CEO Sherpany), Cristian Grossmann (CEO Beekeeper). The discussion was moderated by Corine Blesi (Managing director Swiss Economic Forum).
Corine Blesi: So I think everyone is here. Welcome to the fourth SEF. Talk in the context of Remote Work. Today on the topic of rituals, tools and working atmosphere. My name is Corine Blesi, I am the managing director of the Swiss Economic Forum and I am extremely pleased to be discussing the topic of Remote Work with three such great, exciting founders and full-blooded entrepreneurs. Before we start and before I introduce these gentlemen, two or three small points about the process. We would very much appreciate it if the participants and listeners would actively participate. It is possible to ask questions via the chat function or this F&A function. We will record these in the course of the discussion and the guests will also answer them directly if it fits into the topic. So there you can join the discussion, you can also comment and ask questions. The whole talk, discussion and exchange will take about 40 minutes. I would say then we start. As I said, I am looking forward to the three gentlemen and I would like to start with Carlo Badini. He is CEO of Cleverclip. Cleverclip, where this SEF.Talk is also produced, is already for the fourth time and in this sense, a heartfelt thank you to Carlo and his team. We have asked all guests to give us a little statement about Remote Work, which is important for them. And Carlo wrote us he is absolutely convinced that Remote Work will be the future of collaboration and that now with Covid 19 this transformation has been accelerated many times over. And I think that’s a very exciting point that we’ll talk about later. Carlo, welcome, it’s great to have you with us.
Carlo Badini: Merci. Hello, everyone.
Corine Blesi: Then I welcome Tobias Häckermann. He is CEO of Sherpany. He has already founded several companies. Tobias has written to us: Remote Work needs clear structures, simple rituals and strong principles. What a sentence. We’ll certainly do some more drilling there as well. Welcome, it’s nice to have you with us.
Tobias Häckermann: Thank you for letting me be part of it and a warm welcome to everyone.
Corine Blesi: And then Cristian Grossmann, CEO and Co-Founder of Beekeeper. Cris wrote to us that the current situation also underlines the importance of these digital tools and that the investment in digitalisation is important, more important than ever. And I think that is also a very exciting point. Welcome Chris.
Cristian Grossmann: Thank you very much Corine.
Corine Blesi: I think we will start with a little warm-up question. I would be happy if everyone could say in three sentences What does your company do and why is it called what it is called? Tobi, would you like to start, please?
Tobias Häckermann: I’d love to, thank you very much. Sherpany makes digital session management, based on a principle of agile session management. The core of what our software supports is that in the run-up to a session, you work, discuss and exchange information asynchronously and can thus reduce the session massively. And especially in remote work, where structure is important, Sherpany brings this structure to the meeting in a simple way, making meetings more efficient and effective and decision-making faster. Now, how did this come to Sherpany? There is a brand story about Sherpany. Sherpany is like the Sherpa that helps you get to the top of the mountain when you want to go to Mount Everest or Annapurna Circuit. That’s our brand story. The reality is that we were called Agilentia and there is an American company called Agilent, which sued us and said that it was not possible. Then we said well, either we can fight now or we can find a new name. Then we had a beer and started thinking about it. And have from shareholder and company, these two together, if they work together successfully, then it is probably more successful. Put this together, that would have been Sharpeny. But we are not Sharp, so we took Sherpany, checked if the COM domain is free and registered it. And later on, brilliant marketing people put this brand story into our scales.
Corine Blesi: Okay. Great. I read the other day that your vision is to free the top decision makers from a million hours of administrative work by 2020. Have you already achieved that?
Tobias Häckermann: 2020 is fortunately not quite ready yet, so we still have a little time to do it, but we are on a very good path. Corona was a positive effect for us. We had an extremely high demand in the whole area of session management, digitalization of session management and so I am more positive that we will achieve this by the end of the year, when I was in January.
Corine Blesi: Okay. Great. Thanks a lot Tobi. Cris, Beekeeper, what do you do, what do you stand for?
Cristian Grossmann: With pleasure. Beekeeper is a communication platform especially for industrial employees. And we help companies to provide hard-to-reach employees such as industrial workers with communication, processes, tools and information via a central / available. And thus to increase productivity, safety and efficiency. How the name came about, because we have a lot to do with communication, the bees are actually a very good example of communication. They are used very simply and very efficiently with a very good purpose, because they can make beautiful and tasty honey.
Corine Blesi: Cool. I don’t know if this is a rumor, but I once heard that you originally started with a flirting app for shy ETH students. Is there any truth to this rumor?
Cristian Grossmann: That is definitely the case. So in the founding team there are four. Three of them are from ETH, including me. And yes that’s right. Our very first version of the product was a flirting app where you could anonymously address the other person. Definitely a good product for shy ETH people like us back then.
Corine Blesi: All right. Carlo, Cleverclip, you explain the world to people with a clip, but what else do you do?
Carlo Badini: Exactly yes. So we started with explanatory videos. That’s where the name comes from, we make clever video clips and then it didn’t take much to put these two words together. It sounded kind of young. That’s how Cleverclip became. We looked to see if the domain was still available. Of course it was still available. It was a relatively simple decision. The name was a bit of a downfall for us because we offered much more than just clever videos. Meanwhile we do e-learnings, interactive microsites and quizzes and infographics. So whenever it’s about explaining something complex in a simple way, in whatever way, and that’s why this clip is a bit obsolete by now, but we just thought it was clever, we can’t baptize ourselves, that’s why we kept the name.
Corine Blesi: Good. Great. Thank you very much for this introduction. I think we’ll go straight into the subject. Rituals is the first. Tobi You said simple rituals are very important. Which simple rituals have you established and how do they work?
Tobias Häckermann: So simple rituals, the rituals are above all important so that you have the cohesion, so that you notice how you are together. In the beginning we tried out different things and in the end we just copied them: What do you do in an office? What kind of rituals are there that also happen in an office? And one of them is, for example, when you come in in the morning, you say “Good morning”. And when you go to lunch you say, “Hey, I’m going to lunch, would you like to join me?” That’s one of those rituals. And we’ve digitally established that in the same way. And we all do it now. That on the channels, when you start working in the morning, you say “Good morning”. That you greet the others by mentioning them. That you mention the others, that you greet the others who are on the same team, who are on the same channel. You say, “Hey, I’m going for a quick jog.” Or, “I’m going for lunch.” Or like, “Hey, I’m going for a jog. Want to join me?” Then three people go jogging at the same time, even if they’re not in the same place. But those are actually small rituals. Or the same thing, for example: What happens at the coffee machine. You meet, you just talk, you can have a conversation. That’s why we have a talking channel. It’s called Breakout Channel, where there’s also an existing video conference, which is always there. And if you let yourself out with a cup of coffee, have the coffee machine running at home and then sit down for five minutes while drinking coffee, you can go into this channel, or into this video conference, which is simply always standing, and those who are also drinking coffee are then also there.
Then you can exchange views briefly and after three minutes you say: “Well, I’m going to get back to work now, bye bye together. It was a good exchange.” These are little things that are important to create social cohesion or a sense of unity. It’s one of those rituals. The second one, which is very important, is that the communication happens in a channel, we can talk about what it is afterwards, and not in direct messages. When I am in an office, especially in an open office, when I am talking at a table, then five others can listen in. What happens when they listen in? Good ideas suddenly come up. One of them listens and says, “Ah, I have another idea.” Or, “Hey, I could give you a hand.” Or “Yesterday I thought about it, I did something before.” And what we see very, very much in companies that do remotely, is that a lot of the discussions go into the private messages. Why? Yes I just want to exchange with Cris, so I write to him. Just like when I take Whatsapp, I write him. And you have to train that people mention him in the channel, where everybody can read along, at Cris, so that I have a direct conversation with Cris, but still everybody can read along and so extremely exciting dynamics arise, where people from the whole company jump up on topics and say: “Hey, I have another idea. Or: “I have another capability. I can help with that.” For example, we have a front-end engineer who has a PHD in linguistics. Super valuable in certain topics we discuss in marketing. That would never happen if this discussion didn’t take place, because nobody in marketing would think of us having a front-end engineer who has a PHD in linguistics.
Corine Blesi: Now Cris with you, you still have locations, you are spread out everywhere. I don’t know partly maybe with a time difference. How do you do that when you are spread over a whole continent? Well, the one is still a little bit, if you know that I am in Zurich and the other one is in Bern. If you are spread out everywhere a little bit, how do you manage to create a feeling of togetherness?
Cristian Grossmann: Yes, that is something very important for us too. We’ve been pretty remote since the beginning with our first location in California, where the time difference adds some hurdles. We also have teams in Berlin, Krakow and London in the UK. And the way we handle this is actually very similar to what Tobias meant. One of our main rituals is the Daily Standups. We let the teams decide that relatively flexible, but once a day, rather in the morning at some point we all come together and say what the goals of the day are. What do we want to achieve? What difficulties did we have yesterday? Just that it comes up relatively naturally. And the other topic, which is very important for communication with the different locations, where there are many differences, is asynchronous communication. That, as Tobias says, even this kind of conversation can take place independently of time and not necessarily synchronously. Which also pushes the context very much, for example when we win new customers or have cool new cases, that we share this with the whole company. That also helps to create cohesion. And that’s what we try to continue to do, even when we all work at home.
Corine Blesi: Well, you could say a chat in front of the coffee machine or in former times you had to go to the smoker’s balcony, then you always knew what was going on in the management or a quick ping-pong match, like some people do here, but you still didn’t have that. Carlo, how do you charge this? I mean, you can try to depict many things a little bit, but the really personal exchange, or a little bit of this absolute spontaneity is still not possible. How do you do that?
Carlo Badini: Yes that’s a good point. I think it’s a little more extreme for us because we’ve been completely on remote work since day one. Cleverclip was founded seven years ago, the first employee sat in Kuala Lumpur next to me. Since then, we have really been completely decentralized. We have an office in Bern, where people meet from time to time. But apart from that they are in 14 different countries. And we have tried this with these rituals, and I am also amazed by Tobi, whether it really works with these coffee-break rooms. With us it always worked only so hard. Actually it is a ritual, what you practice in real life, trying to copy into the virtual world. And that has always met with a little resistance from us at least. What has really settled in well with us is, I would say rather an online culture. Our intranet reminds me more of how you used to hang out on forums, you have a lot of inside jokes, you have a lot of private conversations that go on a public channel, when we find cool videos on YouTube or something, they share them and then they share and they watch the same stuff. So our online corporate culture reminds me a lot more of a Reddit forum than a copy of how a physical office would work virtually. And the cohesion, we have to see that clearly in this Corona time, to really strengthen the cohesion, I think physical contact is simply necessary. And I know at least about Sherpany, I think Beekeeper I don’t know how they do it, we do a retreat once a year, where we spend ten days, the whole company goes to one place at the expense of the company and we work together, celebrate together. And that’s where the culture-building is, which has to last for the whole year.
Corine Blesi: Ultimately, it is the shared experiences that connect us. Where you might have a beer at the end of the day or when you do a ten-day retreat, where you can come back to it. Are there things, I mean, you have always been quite remote, but are there things that you miss? Or where you can find – bah, that’s why I go to the office every now and then. Because only remote is one thing, but there are also phases when everyone is happy that they can come back to the office. What are these little things? It’s often what makes the difference and where you only miss it when you no longer have it.
Tobias Häckermann: I would like to quickly take to Carlo for the remote coffee. I think what is certain, what doesn’t work is when you try to enforce it, that people have to do it. But I think one of the big issues, and I think that’s specific to the company culture, you just have to try a lot. I mean, we’ve really been trying out virtually from hanging video walls in the offices to tearing them down again, to somehow standing specific slots for after-work beer. We’ve easily thrown back nine out of ten such initiatives because they didn’t work. You have to try it again and again and some of them get stuck and others die again. And I think the second thing I agree with Carlo, I think it is like everything else in digital transformation, it is transforming and not copying. I think you can be inspired by the real world, for example we learned a lot with just watching, what do people do in the office? And then we started thinking about it: The why behind the why. Why do they do that? How could we make this possible virtually?
Totally agree. That gives you that much more videos, jokes digital and so on are shared. We also have a specific channel for that, because we said it shouldn’t happen in the work channels, because then you have a huge puff of information afterwards. So it needs a little guidance. But for example the after-work beer doesn’t work. But what works great is playing a game together. Digital games make you feel like you’re at a LAN party. Somehow 15 years ago you went to a LAN party and now you do it like this. And so you can suddenly bring a lot of things together. And, that’s something we noticed, now mainly through Corona, half of our company was already remote and the other half was actually two days remote, three days in the office. And with this, the people who were in the office were much closer to each other than those in another office. A big advantage for us with Corona was that now everyone is equally close. Many more such collaborations are beginning. Cross-location and that is something we now also ask ourselves: Okay, how can we make sure that this is maintained? Because that was a very clear efficiency gain for us.
Corine Blesi: We may have to explain the terms quickly. Remote Work is a huge issue now, that has come up. There is home office, which used to be done a little more or less, depending on the company. Then the way you have organized are in different locations. What are the most important things when you make these distinctions and what are the things that work better or less well, based purely on your experience?
Carlo Badini: Otherwise I can quickly fill in here. So home office at least for me as a definition, home office is simply working from home. And home office is like the SBB version of Remote Work. Employees can work from home for two or three days and then they have to go back to the office. That’s at least what I understand by home office. Remote Work really is, if you have the intention that employees can work from somewhere. Whether they then sit together in the same co-working space is open to question, at least the processes and communication channels are designed in such a way that it actually allows location-independent working. And that’s what I understand by Remote Work.
Corine Blesi: Now someone has asked an exciting question, we quickly looked at that in the preliminary discussion: Do you have the feeling that much less office space will be needed in the future? Because many companies are making a little bit of an effort now, but they are making their first experiences with the home office, they see it working well, and things will certainly be able to get back into Corona and change a little bit, that you are not always in the office. Will this have an influence on the whole real estate industry? What do you think about that, what is your assessment?
Tobias Häckermann: I think so. I mean with us, we previously had an average workload of almost 50 percent. And we are now assuming that it will drop to 35 percent. That means we will have at least two, if not two and a half employees per workplace in our six different locations in Europe.
Corine Blesi: Yes, that goes in the same direction for many. A topic I would like to take up, where a little bit became a question of religion in the last weeks: efficiency and productivity. Where you have very different assessments, you notice yourself, you can do one meeting after the other. You no longer have to travel around to go to Basel or Bern. On the other hand, many people are also a bit upset and often you are in a bad mood in the evening. How do you see it like that? Well sure, you are all very experienced now and have been doing it for a long time and I know very pro Remote Work. But then there are also two or three disadvantages. What is your analysis?
Tobias Häckermann: I would like to step in quickly. And that’s exactly the point. What we are experiencing today is mostly home office, not remote work. And with home office the roof falls on your head. But Remote Work means I also have a working day. I get up, go either to my fishing cottage, to the co-working space, to the coffee shop where I typically go. That is something different. And there I have much more social contacts outside of my family than when I’m in my home office. That’s why it’s important to differentiate. Home office and remote work are not the same thing. And most people currently have experience with home office. There I also believe that there are many positive things. But primarily with home office. Not with Remote Work. Sorry Cris, I think I fell into that word.
Cristian Grossmann: No, no. So we have also seen something very similar. And I would like to give two perspectives. Internally we have had a similar experience. I would almost make a distinction, the people who have a family or who have children at home, I think are the ones who have seen the biggest hurdles to stay productive. I admire all of them how they were able to combine that to have the kids at home and at the same time try to do something. I think those who don’t have children have become more productive after all. That is the internal perspective. The external perspective is what we see with our customers, which are usually companies with I would say 60, 70, 80 percent of industrial employees who actually have to be at work to do anything at all. / extremely different from what we normally see as desktop workers. That’s actually communication, rituals and so on have become all the more important in order to keep the company going. And of course, it depends very much on the different industries. There are some industries where problems, that is, those that are very much affected by it, such as hotels, restaurants and so on. And there are others where others have problems of how can I keep up with so much demand. Everything that is logistics, hospitals and so on.
Carlo Badini: I totally agree. I think that should be understood. We are of course Software Development Design. This is a very privileged industry where you can allow yourself to work safely from anywhere. Of course, this is not the case in many industries. Then the question arises of how you have to position yourself correctly, how you can communicate efficiently and how you can perform these rituals.
Corine Blesi: Well I would like to switch to the tools. I already have a question here. There are so many different tools, if you have dealt with them a little bit in the last week, to optimize processes, to organize yourself personally, for time tracking, for finances. I think the ones that most people have had to do are the communication tools, chat tools, video tools. What are your tips, if someone changes the structure a bit, wants to work more remotely. What are those tools where you swear by them, where you say you would never give them up in your everyday work.
Tobias Häckermann: Yes, obviously at my sher company, at Cris Beekeeper.
Carlo Badini: With us, we have tried out very, very many things. We have tried Slack. I am not a big fan of Slack. I think it’s closed, I think the name already gives it away, it makes you a little bit slow, because it’s too attractive and because you spend too much time on it. What our top tool is, is Basecamp. It’s a project management tool that has a simple messanger function in it. I would say that for us it covers 90 percent of remote work, collaboration. The rest we have with online whiteboard, software. At Miro you can work on a virtual whiteboard. We have Loom, where you can send each other videos. These are small things, but the biggest part happens at this base camp.
Cristian Grossmann: I would also say that with us it depends a little bit on what you want to achieve in the area. For us internally, so of course we need Beekeeper. But of course we complement that with things like Zoom. That has also become very, very important for us. As you also said Miro. We also need a lot. And I think we need a lot of Google Docs, Spreadsheet Docs and so on. But I think this is more for privileged jobs, where it can take place directly on the PC and so on. With our customers we see that this whole situation has actually led to stories where you have to send your employees home on short-time work and you have no other way to reach them than maybe Whatsapp. We have a lot of customers where we had to send letters, which makes it very difficult. And for exactly these kinds of areas digital tools like Beekeeper are a good approach.
Tobias Häckermann: Well, I am, although Cris is there, I have to take the opposite position to Carlo. Slack for us is fantastic, we have introduced Slack. We have tried out teams. We also tried over (incomprehensibly 0:28:14) and so on. We have tried hangouts as a communication tool. Slack worked best for us. And exactly, for us it was the other way around, more focus and above all a great opportunity to automate a lot of communicative elements. You said before Cris, when a new customer is acquired, there are automatic messages. When a customer expands, when he takes additional features and so on. And that is extremely important. To celebrate success, to share success with everyone. Also to see how it works. Then of course you have the full range, all the Google Docs, zoom logically. We also need Miro for internal communication. But then it’s different for every department. If you’re in design somehow, you use Vision as a communication tool. I don’t think you can answer this question in general. But I think what you can do, what we can probably give to everyone on the way, is almost more important, so of course the communication tools are extremely important. Almost more important than which one, you have to think first: What is your communication concept? So how do you structure your communication in the company? If it’s a company with one to twenty employees, it’s still relatively simple. But if you have 100, 200, 300 employees or even more than a thousand, you have to think about it: What kind of communication is it about? How do you channel that so that it remains effective. And I believe that if you invest a little time in the concept, then you gain a lot, because there is a greater chance that you will use the right tool, namely the one that fits your concept. And the second thing is, you won’t create chaos.
Corine Blesi: Yes, it is a little bit the same with the trials. If you now take a tool that supports the process, or you have to adapt to a certain extent. I think these are fundamental questions. I have an exciting question here from Andi Donati. He would like to know to what extent the management structures are changing and also the management span now with this whole, the size of teams in the environment of Remote Work. Do you have the feeling that this also has an influence on the organizational structure?
Carlo Badini: I just want to say something quickly about what Tobi said before. And he already mentioned it at the beginning and I think we have to come back to it quickly. I think the most important thing, and here I completely agree with you, it doesn’t matter if you need slack or beekeeper or basecamp. The most important thing is that the communication works in channels. And in channels that are transparent and accessible to everyone. All those who say they need Whatsapp to communicate, that’s a shit, it doesn’t work, because then you’re pinging back and forth in this 1:1 and a lot of information gets lost. I think the most important thing, and it doesn’t matter which tool you use, is that you institutionalize, that every project or every topic has a channel and the communication on this topic takes place in these channels.
Tobias Häckermann: And maybe, I’ll come back to the answer to the other question later, on top of that, communication doesn’t work independently. You need a policeman, or someone who owns communication. You have to kill channels, you have to kill topics, you have to kill topics. You have to keep cleaning it up. Because it’s a natural process that new things are created and you have to keep cleaning it up. Because otherwise it gets lost and you no longer have an overview. You no longer know when you actually need something. There are also very simple things. For example that you carry out certain things. There are team channels that always start with team. There are topic channels that always start with a topic. And there are ad hoc channels that always start with ad hoc or something. It’s not rocket science at all. It’s relatively simple. But you have to think about these things a bit, so that you can really keep things in order afterwards, and so that knowledge management becomes significantly easier when you use a communication platform.
Corine Blesi: I think that came out a little bit last week, you have to define new rules a little bit. So in the beginning you can try out a few tools and then in the evening you realize: Where do I have to answer now? Where does it still have a chat? Where am I still lagging behind? Then you notice that you can’t keep up at all and that you are actually not more efficient. But I think with time you know a little bit about these two or three that you want to use. And then you can act accordingly and set up these rules within the company. I would still like to come back to the question of leadership. What is your assessment? Will the teams change in the future? Will we see new organizational structures?
Tobias Häckermann: Cris, do you want to go first?
Cristian Grossmann: Yes, of course. Exciting question. In the short term I would say not, so there are certainly changes, as we have heard, in communication, communication dynamics, how do you communicate and so on. As far as the structure per se is concerned, I could imagine that remote could make the teams a little bigger and a little more efficient. In other words, the leadership span could tend to become larger rather than smaller. But this is more likely to be an assumption that we haven’t seen ourselves yet. Or have done. Speculatively. What do you think?
Tobias Häckermann: I would say the shortest answer is that middle managers will fall out. And that’s because you have even less chance to lead through presence. You have to know much more: What do I want from whom? What do I expect? And extremely strong outward-oriented leadership. If you can really lead in an outward-oriented way, then you can trust A much more, allow and promote much more independence, much more dynamics in the team. This also allows you to increase your leadership span. And that’s why I would say yes Cris, I think the leadership span will also tend to increase a little bit, but mediocrity is no longer enough. And mediocrity in the sense of, typically we have made this mistake, we have all made this mistake, at Sherpany we have probably made it a lot, we have turned good specialists into managers. These are two different skills that you need. And in our organizational model we have very consciously put management and specialist careers on an equal footing, both in terms of titles and development, as well as in terms of salary. Just because you are a manager, you are not necessarily more valuable to a company. But it is a skill that we need, just as we need a top backend engineer, just as we need a top designer. And that’s how we’ve managed to really look at leaders, you don’t have to be a good designer, but you have to really have a handle on these elements that are part of leadership. And one of those core elements is results-oriented leadership. Otherwise, we don’t think the remote works.
Corine Blesi: (incomprehensible 0:35:46) Requirement profile. Yes Carlo with you, do you still have a hierarchy or what kind of structure do you have?
Carlo Badini: Right. No we are such a new hippie company where there is no longer a direct hierarchy in that sense. Of course there is still the management, which interprets the strategy.
Tobias Häckermann: There is simply the company and the Carlo.
Carlo Badini: (incomprehensible 0:36:14) on the hammock. No what we don’t have, and there I agree again with Tobi, we really don’t have middle management. I don’t know if it’s because we are remote from the beginning, or if it’s because we have been Holacracy oriented from the beginning, a more modern organizational model. I can’t tell what the cause and effect is. But what we just found out is that it works very, very well when we have people who are really working. And not just people who organize meetings and try things in between somewhere /. With us, people really manage themselves. It’s hard to tell if that’s because we’re remote, if it’s interdependent, we have designers who set their own plans, they don’t need a manager telling them they have to do this and that and that. And that of course gives a lot more efficiency.
Corine Blesi: Yes, I think that a little bit of personal responsibility and trust have become the two topics of the hour, which have now also gained some importance in the last week. We are already slowly coming to the end. At the end I have prepared a sentence which I will start and I would like it if everyone would finish it. It’s called: The next company I start, what exactly will it do? Tobi?
Tobias Häckermann: Construction robots.
Corine Blesi: construction robot. Corine Blesi: Construction Robot. Yes is good. Cris?
Cristian Grossmann: Drones delivering packages.
Corine Blesi: Drones delivering packages. Okay. Carlo?
Carlo Badini: interior design.
Corine Blesi: You have to say again.
Carlo Badini: interior design. Interior Design.
Corine Blesi: I see there are whole new business models on the horizon. I would like to take this opportunity to thank you very much for this committed discussion, also for this openness, and also for sharing some of the things that naturally affect the company and are also personal. I think we have seen three visionaries there. I mean all your business models, which have now been accelerated extremely, also by this crisis. Who would have thought that three years ago. Probably nobody. But sometimes you simply have to have a good nose as an entrepreneur. And in this sense I personally wish you all the best for the future and especially for your companies, your next projects and your next ventures. May they succeed. And I would like to take this opportunity to thank all my listeners for their active cooperation. To those who asked questions for the many great questions. And I would be happy if you would be there again next time. With this in mind, I wish you a pleasant afternoon and farewell to each other.
Carlo Badini: Merci.
Tobias Häckermann: Thank you very much. Merci. Bye together.